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Talk:Jūgo
decision time Continuing here from the super long topic at Senninka's page. So can we just list Jugo as a user of Sage Mode or merge the two and call it a day?--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :...So Jugo is a sage now?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 12:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC) ::...No. Only those who've mastered the Sage Mode (either through Naruto-like training or Kabuto-like means) are sages. Those who can knead Senchakra, but can't enter Sage Mode because they don't have the right body or loose control over themselves, aren't sages. Seelentau 愛議 12:50, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :::I also say no. Isn't a Sage someone who was taught Senjutsu or perhaps trained it by himself even? Other than having Senjutsu chakra, Jugo doesn't know any "Sage Technique:" or "Sage Art:" not to mention he doesn't even know how to absorb natural energy since his body does it for him. He is as much of a Sage as Curse Mark wielders are, save the fact he manipulates the Senjutsu chakra himself to use Sage Transformation, which is a Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::@Seel, I don't think it's about mastery, otherwise Jiraiya wouldn't be a Sage.--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :::::Mastery as in "opposed to whatever Jugo's and Orochimaru's problem is", not in "complete and perfect control". Sage Transformation can be used to enter Sage Mode, yes. This means, we have three ST user: Kabuto, Jugo (+ clan) and Obito (somewhat unclear), but only Kabuto can also use Sage Mode. Seelentau 愛議 13:01, March 6, 2014 (UTC) Since Sage Transformation is an extension of Sage Mode, that in my opinion is enough to list him as a user. For status, short story is, Jugo can mold Senjutsu chakra himself. It's arguable if that is enough to classify him as a Sage--Elveonora (talk) 13:04, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :@Seel, for some reason you consider only those who perfectly balance Senjutsu chakra as true Sage Mode users. But that isn't a requirement, otherwise Jiraiya again wouldn't be a user--Elveonora (talk) 13:05, March 6, 2014 (UTC) ::Sage Transformation is what the special bodies do to Jugo and his kin (as stated by Jugo). If one has gained control over his body at the Ryuchido (as stated by Kabuto), he can use the Sage Transformation to enter Sage Mode (as stated by Kabuto). Kabuto can do so, Jugo can't. Kabuto is a sage, Jugo is not. ::It isn't a requirement, yes. But I never stated that it is. Of course he's a sage. Seelentau 愛議 13:10, March 6, 2014 (UTC) Again, we consider Jiraiya a user of Sage Mode. Jugo isn't any different from him, he can create Senjutsu chakra but can't completely balance it, therefore when he uses Sage Transformation he is by all means using Incomplete Sage Mode as well--Elveonora (talk) 13:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :He is different from Jiraiya in terms of how he absorbs natural energy. Really, I think if it wasn't for Jūgo's body, he'd be an imperfect sage, too. But there's the difference between accessing sage mode through normal means, like Naruto and Jiraiya do, and accessing it through a modified body, like Jugo and Kabuto do. Seelentau 愛議 13:20, March 6, 2014 (UTC) ::How they absorb natural energies is a determining factor if they are of Sage status or not, not if they are using the mode itself. Jugo still has to mold Senjutsu chakra and doing so makes him enter Sage Mode, or rather Sage Transformation hence special bodily fluids. By the same logic, each time Shima&Fukasaku were absorbing natural energy for Jiraiya, he wasn't in those instances user of Sage Mode. Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, it's not about knowing how to absorb natural energy, but that's how I see it--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :"Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode" - and here's the problem. According to the databooks, even though Fukasaku and Shima were absorbing natural energy and kneading senchakra, they aren't users of the sage mode. This makes me think that "Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode", which is furthermore supported by the fact that Sage Mode is a Senjutsu, but not every Senjutsu has Sage Mode as a parent technique. Seelentau 愛議 14:00, March 6, 2014 (UTC) ::I am completely confused.--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 14:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC) @Seel, I'm aware that databooks don't list Fukasaku and Shima as Sage Mode users, but we do. The books are not always correct, you know this. There's manga evidence that molding Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode as I mentioned the toad oil. The moment Naruto's body started absorbing natural energy, he started gaining toad characteristics. He didn't have to say "ACTIVATE!" and perform a hand sign. For "not every Senjutsu has Sage Mode as a parent" We are yet to see anyone use Senjutsu outside of Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, March 6, 2014 (UTC) "Simant asked me for my input in this discussion. As explained in chapter 418 and in the third databook, Sage Mode is the state where one has moulded senjutsu chakra inside oneself. The state where one can use senjutsu and has had their body vitalised by the senjutsu chakra. Using this definition, both Fukasaku and Shima are capable of using Sage Mode, as they have clearly shown the ability to use senjutsu. --ShounenSuki"--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :Suki-senpai has my utmost respect, you all know that. But if we use an old definition on information that was provided after the definition was established, we can only lose. Things change. Information changes. Facts change. Please don't measure new things by old standards. Seelentau 愛議 14:37, March 6, 2014 (UTC) ::Since when did anything change? I must have missed that. I'm positive we haven't been given anything new in that regard since "old definition on information" nor have we seen it done. When Naruto absorbs natural energy and then balances it with his physical and spiritual energies, thus molding senjutsu chakra, he enters Sage Mode, no hand seal done or anything. That's why I'm not sure why you come to the conclusion that molding Senjutsu chakra isn't equivalent of Sage Mode, other than Shima and Fukasaku not being credited in databook, which might be an error--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC) Well, whatever comes from this topic is that either we list Jugo as a user or remove Shima, Fukasaku and Gamakichi, let the vote begin--Elveonora (talk) 14:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :Can't we just add the fact and remove everything else? :( Seelentau 愛議 15:02, March 6, 2014 (UTC) Well, let's look at the thing objectively. Both manga and databooks say that molding Senjutsu chakra activates Sage Mode, yet toads aren't listed for whatever reason. Logical conclusions: # it's an error that they aren't listed # just molding Senjutsu chakra doesn't activate Sage Mode Looking at the fact that the definition fits with what the toads do means it's more likely to be an error OR.... and there's where facts stop, we could speculate that toads are in Senjutsu-enhanced state constantly and don't have to use mode, since they are "nature" but that's a speculation and in fact contradicts the fact they also have to gather natural energy to mold senjutsu chakra. Therefore it's an error, the safest route, just like Zabuza's age is an error, yet some yourself included speculate that the young boy who killed his classmate couldn't have been Zabuza rather than admitting calculation error on Kishi's part. That's my input, let's wait for others.--Elveonora (talk) 15:13, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :Unless there has been any new information revealed in the manga, after Shounen gave the definition, which I don't think there was; I would rather go with the former (i.e. Add Jūgo).--''~UltimateSupreme'' 15:17, March 6, 2014 (UTC) ::The thing is, Suki-senpai's words and his translation don't match. Check it. Seelentau 愛議 15:23, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :::They actually do, it says that using Senjutsu chakra increases power of ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu and as you know that's what Sage Mode is and the translation is about.--Elveonora (talk) 15:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC) Regarding the toad issue, Fukasaku definitely entered an empowered state, but is it not possible it is only called Sage Mode when humans do it, hence the databook only listing Jiraiya? The toads don't change, after all, so it may not be considered a "mode" for them.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:28, March 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::No, they do not. The only sentence in the databook about the Sage Mode is "The form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain.". Everything else is about Senjutsu. If Sage Mode and Senjutsu were one and the same, the very first sentence wouldn't discern between the form (Sage Mode) and Senjutsu. So no, according to the databook, Sage Mode and Senjutsu are two different things, with Sage Mode being a Senjutsu, of course. Also, Ma and Pa are not user of the Sage Mode, that was never stated anywhere and should not be added in the article, since it's obviously not correct. Seelentau 愛議 16:58, March 6, 2014 (UTC) It pretty much boils down to interpretation, I don't read it as suggesting any differentiation. It just says Sage Mode is Senjutsu. And "showed to use senjutsu" can actually be interpreted as Senjutsu use requiring Sage Mode activated--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :Somehow, it always comes down to interpretation when I discuss with you. But it's not our job to interpret. Please show me a source for Senjutsu = Sage Mode, I can't remember where that was stated. Seelentau 愛議 17:56, March 6, 2014 (UTC) Someone mind giving us lost and thoroughly confused people done bullet points? --Cerez365™ (talk) 18:59, March 6, 2014 (UTC) How else can "The form Jiraiya showed to use Senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain" be interpreted other than: * the form uses senjutsu * or the form is required to use senjutsu Where do you get the vibe that using Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode? @Cerez, Seelentau stating that toads don't use Sage Mode because using Senjutsu isn't synonymous with using Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 19:06, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :It doesn't matter where I get the vibes from. I need a proof that what you say is true. Nothing else. Seelentau 愛議 19:29, March 6, 2014 (UTC) :: ...Toad's don't use Sage Mode. Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. If it did, Orochimaru would be a user of Sage Mode... and he isn't. Vibes, interpretations, all that nonsense has nothing to do with it. The cold hard facts don't support it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:19, March 6, 2014 (UTC) @Seel, it goes both ways. I would like some proof as well. Everything we have been told what Sage Mode is was nothing but molding Senjutsu chakra. There's no evidence for otherwise, never was Sage Mode somehow activated. People just absorb natural energy, mold senjutsu chakra and they enter Sage Mode as a consequence of that, no hand seals or anything. Why Shima and Fukasaku weren't listed is for an other topic entirely. @TFF, well mister, we list them as users of Sage Mode for half a decade and suddenly "the cold hard facts don't support it" that's bizarre. Not sure why you bring Orochimaru, since has nothing to do with it. Orochimaru being capable of using Senjutsu means he knows how to absorb natural energy and mold Senjutsu chakra. The reason why he can't enter Sage Mode we were told is because he hasn't found a host body strong enough to wield it, so by all means and purposes, he is a user of Sage Mode, people like someone are just ignorant.--Elveonora (talk) 01:37, March 7, 2014 (UTC) : We're not an authority on anything. If Naruto was listed a user of Chidori on here for years, it makes it just as much bullcrap now as the day it was listed. Animals don't use Sage Mode. They use senjutsu, but again, Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. I find it hard to believe Kishimoto would write an entry on Sage Mode and only list Jiraiya — when both Fukasaku and Shima had used Senjutsu in the same series of chapters — just for shits and giggles. As Seel said, Sage Mode is a type of Senjutsu, but the terms are not synonymous. And Elve, you really shouldn't be calling people ignorant when your usual rebuttal to arguments are founded, in your own words, in your "interpretation" of what is said or done, instead of what actually happened or was said. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:46, March 7, 2014 (UTC) So why don't you remove them, since you "know" we are wrong? And it's interesting that despite your apparent knowledge of the mistake you hadn't cared to correct it until now that Seelentau said so. No offense, but borrowing head into one's backside isn't nice. But I guess go on, fix it. Wait, I guess you think it's not just a one man's decision, or two's to suddenly get rid of something that's been for many years considered by the majority to be a fact. By what difference would opinion of others even make since you two "know" it's wrong? So do you even want to argue about this, or are your minds already made up or something? Also you sound so sure of yourself Foxie with "animals don't use Sage Mode" ... why wouldn't they? Shima and Fukasaku are Sages and it's called Sage Mode, not Animal Mode. The databooks aren't without errors and yes, even Kishi's memory isn't eternal. Pain was drawn with Sharingan once. But how could Kishimoto make such a mistake, did he forget the difference between the two or just human factor happened and he unknowingly switched them in his subconsciousness while he was tired? Zabuza's age isn't fixed to this day, therefore the boy who killed his classmates wasn't him, it's a FACT!!! So let's make a new article for his younger lookalike. Same for Hayate, he couldn't have gone with Kakashi to the Academy, therefore he had a twin!!! I have proof!!! Kishimoto's own words!!! Because he never contradicts himself "sarcasm"--Elveonora (talk) 02:09, March 7, 2014 (UTC) :"Everything we have been told what Sage Mode is was nothing but molding Senjutsu chakra." - Source please. The databook doesn't say so, as proven above. What does the manga say? Seelentau 愛議 07:04, March 7, 2014 (UTC) :: Honestly, I read that whole thing and came up with the same reaction as Seel. You can whine and moan about what's been accepted for years and what not, but until I see where the manga says an animal can use Sage Mode, when Fukasaku's own description of Sage Mode doesn't fit what the toads do, and Kishimoto left them out of a listing on Sage Mode while describing a scene in the same paragraph in which, according to you, they were using Sage Mode, then yeah, you can write me a novel and I won't believe you. Your interpretations don't amount to a hill of beans. But, as Seel states, show us where the manga says the toads use Sage Mode. Show us where it says Senjutsu and Sage Mode are one in the same. At that point, I'll believe you, but until then, all you've got it a lot of personal conviction and whole lot of nothing as far as evidence goes. And no. I don't consider "we've documented it as fact for years!" to be proof of anything other than blatant ignorance on the community's part. I've been saying that since this debate cropped up back when we were arguing it about Gamakichi, so I don't know why you think I'm only saying something now because Seel has. Feel free to search Sage Mode (and perhaps Gamakichi? I can't remember if I brought it up there too) talk page archives (edit: Right here). You'll find that I was actually quite pissed that you guys actually arrived at that conclusion when both the manga and the databooks don't support it. Not only that, but you'll find several other like minded users (including Omnibender) who voiced alongside me that it was stupid, based on our information, to assume that to begin with. So yes. It should be removed. Because it isn't a fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:39, March 7, 2014 (UTC) ::As a side note: If kneading Senchakra means, one is in Sage Mode, how come Madara could absorb Hashirama's Senchakra while the Senju wasn't in Sage Mode? How come Orochimaru could knead Senchakra, but failed to enter Sage Mode through Senninka because he missed the right body? Seelentau 愛議 07:48, March 7, 2014 (UTC) decision time: Bullet Points Can someone please, for the uninitiated that have almost no way to follow this discussion, make a list of bullet points with the main arguments for this situation? Please?--[[User:TheUltimate3|'TheUltimate3']] (talk) 13:09, March 7, 2014 (UTC) My argument is as follows: * Jūgo states that Kabuto's body, which he himself called Sage Mode, is the same as Jūgo's own transformation, named Sage Transformation. (ch. 593) * Sage Transformation is a transformation caused by a special body that absorbs natural energy, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579) * If you know how to knead Senchakra, but don't have the right body, you can't undergo the Sage Transformation, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579) * If you have the body and master it at the Ryūchidō, you can undergo Sage Transformation and enter the mode known as Sage Mode, as explained by Kabuto. (ch. 579) From these statements I conclude that Sage Transformation is the ability to change your special body through absorbing natural energy and only if you master your special body, you can enter Sage Mode. If you don't gain control, you go berserk. This means that while both Jūgo and Kabuto are to be classified as Sage Transformation users, only Kabuto has to be classified as a Sage Mode user, too. Everything about the frogs and Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode has nothing to do with this topic, since the way he enters Sage Mode is different (namely without the special body). Seelentau 愛議 14:19, March 7, 2014 (UTC)